Criminal Technology Or Privacy Invasion?

[Bigaldoc]

I don't know anything about Mail Online, but:

Police to carry out on-the-spot fingerprinting

[John Gray]

The Daily Mail is a right-wing tabloid much scorned by most intelligent people!

If police stop a car, and no means of identification is offered by the driver, and his identity cannot otherwise be established, or they believe the information given to them is false, they are able to use a (much larger) device called Lantern to take a fingerprint and look it up on the referred-to database.

The story seems to announce the extension of this idea to people travelling by foot... Here's a story from nearly three years ago...

[viking33]

I don't know anything about Mail Online, but:

Police to carry out on-the-spot fingerprinting

Sounds like a good idea to me. People should be required to carry some sort of valid ID. Driving or on foot. This would at least be another tool to establish ID in some instances but not be taken as the final, last word on who a person is or if allowed to drive someone else's car.
I'm all for a National ID card for all citizens. What's the big fear of the ability to show who you are, when asked for a legitimate reason? The military does that all the time but then again, are our military stripped of all rights when enlisting? Some maybe but not the choice to carry an ID or not.

[StuartR]

The problem is that people often do things that are perfectly legal but where they do not want to be identified. For example this could involve taking part in a legal political demonstration, or trade union rally, where they do not want their employer to know what they have been involved in.

[Bigaldoc]

What caught my eye about the story is in the very first line:

• • Police are now armed with a device that can scan fingerprints
    so they can correctly identify suspects who lie about their details.

On the premise that one is stopped for a VIOLATION and produces a valid driving license, etc. the police should not have the authority for fingerprinting that individual, UNLESS they believe the identification is false, forged or whatever.

Stuart makes an excellent point. One should NEVER be subjected to identity verification unless one is in violation of the law.

[ChrisGreaves]

One should NEVER be subjected to identity verification unless one is in violation of the law.

Don't try to buy anything with a credit-card, then.

[DaveA]

And different countries have different laws that may allow this.
As Chris stated, we are subject to be printed for many reasons and some banks and stores require that a thumbprint be added to a check one is cashing.

If your prints are not in a database then when scanned they will not know if you provide proper ID or not. Some states are making it easier for this type of ID to be used, and there in no Constitutional Right that says that it can not be done.

[steveh]

And different countries have different laws that may allow this.
As Chris stated, we are subject to be printed for many reasons and some banks and stores require that a thumbprint be added to a check one is cashing.

If your prints are not in a database then when scanned they will not know if you provide proper ID or not. Some states are making it easier for this type of ID to be used, and there in no Constitutional Right that says that it can not be done.

In the UK when my drivers collect any goods from some airlines they are compelled to leave a thumbprint, this is in spite of having to produce 2 valid photo ID methods such as a photo driving licence + Valid staff ID, or Passport etc.

Whilst the sense behind it seems intact I do not believe that one criminal that has stolen goods from the import sheds at heathrow has been caught because of this!!

[ChrisGreaves]

I do not believe that one criminal that has stolen goods from the import sheds at heathrow has been caught because of this!!

Climbing out on a logic-limb here, but ...
Maybe it's a bit like having a steering lock (or a fake flashing blue LED light on the dashboard) in a car. It causes thieves to move on to easier pickings?
Maybe asking couriers for a thumb-print is a means of reminding them that *if* they steal then they *may* be tracked down.

In my business the closest I get to this is signing a non-disclosure agreement with a client - something I'm always happy to do. The NDA serves as a reminder to both parties that we are conducting matters in confidence.
But we both know that we are in the business of transmitting ideas, and any VBA code trick I learn whilst on the job will be carried to the next job, and any cute trick they learn off me will spread like wildfire through their organization.

[rettingr]

American technology is headed in a much more advanced direction. It includes facial recognition, retinal scanning and fingerprinting. Could be a bit more controversial...

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/07/ ... ntroversy/

[ChrisGreaves]

... some banks and stores require that a thumbprint be added to a check one is cashing.

Moneyvill.ca :-

If you come across this situation, ask for a copy of the store’s privacy policy, and make sure the reason for the data collection is spelled out.
Perhaps if enough people do this, retailers will get the message that personal data is, well, personal.

I suppose that one could, pre-emptively, ask the state police for a copy of their policy and quote it before being fingerprinted.
Then all you have to do is find a young lawyer willing to tackle the case for 30% ...

[viking33]

some banks and stores require that a thumbprint be added to a check one is cashing.
---------------------------------
If you handed them the check, you could tell them they already HAVE your prints on the check.

[ChrisGreaves]

... they already HAVE your prints on the check.

Ooooh!
Now that's just plain mean.

And that's probably why I love it!

[steveh]

I do not believe that one criminal that has stolen goods from the import sheds at heathrow has been caught because of this!!

Climbing out on a logic-limb here, but ...
Maybe it's a bit like having a steering lock (or a fake flashing blue LED light on the dashboard) in a car. It causes thieves to move on to easier pickings?
Maybe asking couriers for a thumb-print is a means of reminding them that *if* they steal then they *may* be tracked down.

Heathrow is not known as Thiefrow locally (and probably worldwide) for nothing

If you go to any local pub around the airport you are openly offered all sorts of 'discounted' goods that come off the airport and beat the thumb print squad!

[BobinTexas]

I think that there are cultural and social differences on such issues as the right to privacy (as well as differences of personal opinion). My impression from reading and from tv shows is that most Brits have a higher tolerance for official interference in private lives and matters than do Americans. Although there is no "right to privacy" in the US Constitution, there are many infeences that such a right exists and there have been many Supreme Court rulings, historically, which have affirmed the general notion of the existence of such a right.

As for businesses that want to capture data about me, I resist them to the point that I tell them that they can "have my business but not the data." I have rarely been required to forego a purchase for that reason. On at least one occasion, I left nearly a thousand dollars of purchases in bags at the checkout counter and walked out of the national retailer's store to make the point that I value my privacy more than I respect their desire for sales without risks. I also use cash rather than checks or credit cards to conduct all local transactions.

If it comes down to retailers using facial recognition or retinal (or is it iris?) scans, I shall refuse to trade with them if I know of their practices. There are too many possibilities for abuse or accidental harm to allow business entities to choose these technologies without regulation. Having worked in the credit card industry for 25+ years, I know how much fraud and abuse occurs in these systems. They just pass the costs on to consumers. The tables should be turned and the industry should be required to use far better protected systems and to report to regulators much more frequently with much more detailed information. Today there is no legal burden on the industry even for failures and omissions on their part. We need a modern day Bill Proxmire in the senate to be the tocsin for industry failures.

[ChrisGreaves]

As for businesses that want to capture data about me, I resist them to the point that I tell them that they can "have my business but not the data."

I confess to enjoying this, too.
I sometimes give them the pizza-chain number, just to watch their reaction (" Nine-six-seven; eleven, eleven "), and sometime say "123, 456, 7890", ditto.
I'll give out fictitious addresses, made up on the spot, or some address in Australia, complete with city and postal code.

Trouble is, this really has no impact on the cashier/clerk, and nor should it. They are paid to facilitate a transaction with the customer; they couldn't/shouldn't care at all about whether or not I give fake data.
The ones who care are tucked away in Head office, and they will never really know what I've done.
I'm just one of the "bad addresses" that comes out in the data filter.
If any.

[Doc Watson]

1984 simply has arrived late.