"Let's table the motion"

[ChrisGreaves]

An informal poll.
I remember reading that this expression has different meanings either side of The Atlantic Ocean.
One meaning is "Let us place this paper on the meeting table where we cannot ignore it", and means that the motion will be dealt with before the meeting is adjourned.
The other meaning is "Let us drop this paper from our hand/manila folder so that we need not discuss it at this meeting.

That is, one use is a non-delaying tactic and the other use is a delaying tactic.

(1) What meaning do you assign?
and
(2) Which side of the Atlantic sources your native use of the English language?

Thanks, Chris

[StuartR]

I live in the UK and I understand that phrase to mean that we will discuss this motion on a different day, not today

[LineLaline]

I tend to take things literally and am usually confused at such expressions. My opinion therefore (strongly feeling that it means [1]), does not matter a lot. But i find it interesting how meaning [2] ever was developed and understood. I take meaning [2] more as 'we know we should discuss it, and probably will, so let's place it right here where we won't miss it when we discuss it in the future'.
It is a very interesting expression.

[StuartR]

Here is a US source for the meaning that I use https://www.theclassroom.com/how-to-tab ... 80059.html

[John Gray]

"Let's table the motion" is not a sentence I would ever use, if I wished to be unambiguous.
It is fairly straightforward to write sentences whose meaning is clear. I would recommend this strategy to the OP...

As another example, compare "I could care less" (US) which is used with the same meaning as "I couldn't care less" (UK and the rest of the English-speaking world)...

[stuck]

As a UK resident I understand the phrase to 'table a motion' to mean that the item will be discussed at some point. This phrase is most often heard in the context of something to be debated in Parliament.

I believe in the US Congress it means the opposite, i.e. in that place when a motion is tabled it is set aside and will not be debated.

Ken

[BobH]

It is defined by Robert's Rules of order (no, not mine; the one commonly in use for meetings) as Stuart's link states.

Let me guess. It has the opposite meaning in WA.

[GeoffW]

This Aussie agrees with Stuart et al.

I don't agree it is a delaying tactic per se, as the question states. While it may have the effect of postponing debate, it's more about prioritising than delaying.

[LineLaline]

I just checked with a few on the USA side of the pond. They say they take it as 'let's not discuss it now'.

[LineLaline]

As another example, compare "I could care less" (US) which is used with the same meaning as "I couldn't care less" (UK and the rest of the English-speaking world)...

Yes! And also 'I can hardly wait' and 'I can't hardly wait' although I have been told this may depend on the speaker's home state in America.

[Jay Freedman]

From the WikiPedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(pa ... procedure),

In his book (The Second World War, Volume III, The Grand Alliance), Winston Churchill relates the confusion that arose between American and British military leaders during the Second World War:

The enjoyment of a common language was of course a supreme advantage in all British and American discussions. The delays and often partial misunderstandings which occur when interpreters are used were avoided. There were however differences of expression, which in the early days led to an amusing incident. The British Staff prepared a paper which they wished to raise as a matter of urgency, and informed their American colleagues that they wished to "table it." To the American Staff "tabling" a paper meant putting it away in a drawer and forgetting it. A long and even acrimonious argument ensued before both parties realized that they were agreed on the merits and wanted the same thing.

[BobH]

To table a motion in most American legislatures is a way to kill an issue without discussion or a vote. I've seen it used many times, especially in state legislature.

[ChrisGreaves]

An informal poll.
(1) What meaning do you assign?
2) Which side of the Atlantic sources your native use of the English language?

Well a day has passed; I have read the replies and almost decided to rephrase the question! I recall reading somewhere (probably in one of young Bill Bryson's excellent books on the English Language) that the phrase "Let's table the motion" had one meaning in the UK, and the opposite meaning in the USA.
There seems today to remain some confusion, but given that all, if not most, languages change over time, I should not be surprised. Jay's comment notwithstanding, WSChurchill was writing some 50 to 70 years ago, long before transatlantic TV and the internet and, worst of all, MSWord's spell-checker began to drag(oon) us into US conformity. Coupled with which, where commonly-used phrases cause confusion, perhaps high officers amicably agree to settle on one meaning, the boundaries of definition (US/UK) may not be so sharp today.

Post by StuartR » 11 Nov 2022, 11:09 I live in the UK and I understand that phrase to mean that we will discuss this motion on a different day, not today.

This is one meaning I held, although I have forgotten whether it was assigned to the US or the UK. The meaning of delaying discussion on an issue, essentially, not discussing it at this meeting today; we all need time to discuss and think about it. The other meaning then would be "We must deal with this issue before we rise and adjourn the meeting"

Post by LineLaline » 11 Nov 2022, 11:37 I tend to take things literally and am usually confused at such expressions. ... It is a very interesting expression.

Indeed yes, confusing, as with other examples listed here and elsewhere. I cringe with fear when I think of today's teenagers in Eng.Lit. classes reading "At Christmas we went to our grandparents farm and had a gay old time"

Post by StuartR » 11 Nov 2022, 12:59 Here is a US source for the meaning that I use https://www.theclassroom.com/how-to-tab ... 80059.html

Robert as in "U.S. Army officer Henry Martyn Robert", so I would anticipate that this is a US definition rather than a UK definition. Such a motion demands an immediate vote with no discussion, says the American. Then "The assembly may only consider the question again after an in-order motion to Take from the Table is moved, seconded, and carried." Which to me suggests that the matter can be dealt with at this meeting, need not be deferred to a following meeting, which is, of course, opposite to the meaning suggested by our friend in the UK (Stuart)

Post by John Gray » 11 Nov 2022, 13:25 "Let's table the motion" is not a sentence I would ever use, if I wished to be unambiguous. ...

Given that for many years I have known of the confusion that this phrase can cause, I agree that it is to be avoided. I too would wish to be unambiguous, perhaps "We should vote on this motion before this meeting adjourns" or "We should not vote on this issue until we all have had time to consider and discuss it; we should defer voting until next week's meeting".

Post by stuck » 11 Nov 2022, 13:40 As a UK resident I understand the phrase to 'table a motion' to mean that the item will be discussed at some point. ...

Now I am confused. "Robert" suggests that "to table" means to discuss an inserted issue and then return to the original discussion before adjourning the meeting; that is, "Let's deal with this today, but before we do consider that ..."
I am not surprised that Stuck is confused. I am confused, which is why I tabled this topic yesterday.

Post by BobH » 11 Nov 2022, 14:29 It is defined by Robert's Rules of order (no, not mine; the one commonly in use for meetings) as Stuart's link states.

I agree that it is defined, and even "Defined by Robert's Rules", but as noted above, this is a US foundation, and my point was there was an historic and specific and contrary difference of interpretation between the UK and the US.

Post by GeoffW » 11 Nov 2022, 16:14 This Aussie agrees with Stuart et al. I don't agree it is a delaying tactic per se, as the question states. While it may have the effect of postponing debate, it's more about prioritizing than delaying.

I am not sure of the distinction here. I think of "prioritizing" as "placing items in a strict sequence"; the question is more about the type of delay: Not to be delayed past the end of this meeting, or to be delayed until the next meeting. That is "prioritizing" easily means "placing in sequence with reference to the duration of this meeting"

Post by LineLaline » 11 Nov 2022, 18:27 I just checked with a few on the USA side of the pond. They say they take it as 'let's not discuss it now'.

Similar to "prioritizing", 'let's not discuss it now'; so far this means only that discussion be delayed, but with no reference to the timing - in this meeting, or until the next meeting.

Post by Jay Freedman » 11 Nov 2022, 18:58 From the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(pa ... procedure), In his book (The Second World War, Volume III, The Grand Alliance), Winston Churchill relates the confusion that arose between American and British military ... they were agreed on the merits and wanted the same thing.

I suspect that this was my introduction to the matter, back in 1998 when I bought my set of WSC's works. In WSC's quote, the UK meant "Urgent", which means "before the meeting ends". Putting the issue "On The Table" meant to place it physically where everyone had tangible evidence of a decision to be made.

Post by BobH » 11 Nov 2022, 22:11 To table a motion in most American legislatures is a way to kill an issue without discussion or a vote. I've seen it used many times, especially in state legislature.

This confirms WSC's quote, but then "... Such a motion demands an immediate vote with no discussion, says [Robert] the American ..."

So there you have it. If ever you are in any sort of a formal meeting and someone claims that "we should table this", your best ploy is to second the motion, regardless of your interpretation, force the vote, and then sit back and catch up on your email while everyone else gets angry and tries to sort out what they just voted on.

Thanks to all, Chris

[LineLaline]

"At Christmas we went to our grandparents farm and had a gay old time"

This was all a lot of fun!
It reminds me of the time when my Future Ex went to the UK for business and spent time in pubs during breaks. Before I write what happened please note he is a sweetie and we're still very good friends. Also note he is very (VERY) verbose and the following would often happen where [A] is a very long (LONG) story he would tell me in excruciating detail on the phone:
"Hey, [A] happened!"
"Oh, really?" I would ask, still gasping for oxygen after listening to the long story that turned out to be [A].
"Yeah! And I went outside and met X, and X asked how I was doing, so I said 'well...' and started telling him..." where he would repeat the entire [A] story. This was brain numbing to me, especially since he would do this a few times in a row. Seriously.
Anyway!
In the UK he went to pubs. He told me: "They're all so nice and ask me what I'm doing, so I tell them what my work is and where, and what I'm doing. and afterwards they all say "Oh, how interesting".
I didn't have the heart

[BobH]

I wonder if there is a similar idiom in other languages. We have Dutch, French, German, and Swedish speakers here - and probably other languages -that I'd like to hear from.

[ChrisGreaves]

... my Future Ex ...

I've never had a "future Ex", and honestly, I don't think I could survive another one.
Cheers, Chris

[HansV]

The Dutch have a reputation for being blunt and direct. For "let's table the motion" in the sense of "let's not talk about it now", we'd probably say "let's put it in the refrigerator"...

[ChrisGreaves]

The Dutch have a reputation for being blunt and direct. For "let's table the motion" in the sense of "let's not talk about it now", we'd probably say "let's put it in the refrigerator"...

The Spaniards in Bonavista right now would use "deportes"

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'Twould be just as effective.
We can refrigerate something tonight just by leaving it out of doors!
Chris

[stuck]

...we'd probably say "let's put it in the refrigerator"...

An excellent idea, since we all know the rule that states a fridge has infinite capacity

Ken

[HansV]