Algorithm for best use of discounts while releasing minimal private data?

[ChrisGreaves]

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I bake my own cookies, so why should I buy factory-made cookies in the supermarket?
Nonetheless this promotional scam scheme caught my eye this morning. Bonavista is flooded with tourists and they block the aisles with their shopping carts while they examine all six sides of cans of New Brunswick sardines to see if they are any different from the cans of New Brunswick sardines in the No Frills in Toronto.
For this reason I tend to find my métier in pushing MY cart down these crowded aisles as a sort of ice-breaker clearing away the fools floes for legitimate passage.

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We can ignore the $5.29. That's just what the store puts up to make you think you can get rich by buying these at $3.49.
The "scene" card replaced Air Miles a year or two ago. I believe it is the same processing - a means of collecting sales data which can be sold to manufacturers so that people with maths degrees can use PowerPoint and make $000s per day in a suit and tie.
I do not own a Scene card, but I understand that they are Free - Just Sign Here.

So I think I should fill out the form, sign it, get the card and after all my regular groceries (fruit, bread flour, ...) have gone through and been paid without using the Scene card I should roll the carton of cookies and make a separate payment. Perhaps in cash (banknotes) and the Scene card, but at least with a debit card rather than a credit card.

The deal here seems to be that if I grab a packet of cookies and pay only $1.99 then the Scene people can get hold of my data on account of me using my Scene card.
As long as I use the Scene card ONLY for the cookies (or next week, the potato crisps ...) I foil their dastardly plans.
The Scene card is never applicable to ingredients (sugar, potatoes, carrots, fresh meat etc.)

"Management Measures" is a business dictum, and it suggests here that $3.49-$1.99 or $1.50 is what the data is worth on the shopping cart of groceries today, or at least, on any day from now on, Once they have hooked me on Scene, they get my data. And every time I fall for this $1.50 trick, I'm basically paying them to harvest my data.

(signed) "Paranoid and loving it" of Bonavista.

[John Gray]

That's the deal - the supermarket reduces their prices* when you use your Loyalty Card (or your regional equivalent) in return for "your data", whatever that should be.
Unless you (still?!) pay cash for your shopping, the credit card company is also aware of the total amount you have spent when in what shops; the supermarket knows precisely which items you purchased. You will also appear on their security cameras for however long they keep that data. And so on...

"You have zero privacy anyway," Scott McNealy [of Sun Microsystems] told a group of reporters and analysts Monday night [Jan 1999!] at an event to launch his company's new Jini technology. "Get over it."

* actually, they seem to increase their prices for non-loyalty-card persons!

[ChrisGreaves]

That's the deal - the supermarket reduces their prices (actually, they seem to increase their prices for non-loyalty-card persons!) when you use your Loyalty Card (or your regional equivalent) in return for "your data", whatever that should be.

I am paranoid about becoming too paranoid, so I relax publicly to thinking of store/supermarket data collection as being anonymous. If I churned out cans of stewed tomatoes I’d want data that plotted sales by date, time, and location so that I could gauge the impact of monthly situations (June-September is tourist season here in Bonavista) and/or Federal interest rates or US election fever or whatever.
In that sense I don’t mind data being collected about what, when, and where I buy as long as it is NOT tied to me.

I believe that when I pay with a medium that identifies me, that someone somewhere is profiling me.

I was paying cash until recently, metaphorically setting aside two one-hundred-dollar banknotes in an envelope marked “grocery”, Next month our remaining bank branch closes and with it will close the ATM, so the only place one might be able to get cash is at Foodland which currently offers “cash back” when you pay by credit card. I’ve not thought deeply about this: Can I buy a $3 bunch of bananas, put it on my MasterCard, and ask for $200 in cash, or is that stretching the relationship?
We all have the option of asking a neighbour to w/d $500 cash next time they are in Clarenville or St John’s. I just sold three windows for $1,200 cash so I have those nuts stored away.
(A thought: Suppose you and I each spent about $200/month on groceries; would we screw over the data collection folks by using each other’s credit cards to purchase groceries and shoe laces?)

I believe that modern supermarkets (and Foodland belongs to the chain previously known as Dominion, now Metro) are computerized to the point where they could adjust prices on shelf items every quarter hour. If you had twenty bags of whole wheat flour on the shelves at 8 a.m. you could monitor the quantity and adjust the shelf price upwards by 10% for every reduction of (say) 10% in the quantity remaining on the shelves.
That is using computing technology to the max, which has been my life-long aim, so I shouldn’t complain.

Unless you (still?!) pay cash for your shopping, the credit card company is also aware of the total amount you have spent when in what shops; the supermarket knows precisely which items you purchased. You will also appear on their security cameras for however long they keep that data. And so on...

I agree. Most of us will remember the story of the outraged father who complained about the store sending baby-product coupons to his teenage (14? 15?) daughter, “encouraging her to get pregnant”. Ultimately the store demonstrated that the youngster had switched to a non-scented hand lotion (or shampoo) and their data analysis indicated that non-aromatic products indicated pregnancy; a simple medical test confirmed that the lass was, indeed, pregnant) [[[if anyone her can locate and link to that article I will be grateful]]]
The data logging means that the store will be able to predict, with increasing accuracy, when I will appear and what I will buy and at what price. Right now when Pork drops below $cad15/Kg I snap up three or four chunks and make Home-baked spam. I think that there is no technical obstacle to a little light on the shelf that alerts me as I trundle the trolley past the pork at $14.50/Kg.

In Bonavista security cameras are human eyes. Cashier Melita shouts to me across five aisles “Where ya been?”, and Ivy confronted me on my third Monday in Bonavista in 2018 with a sly “Didn’t see you in church yesterday …”. I love this.

"You have zero privacy anyway," Scott McNealy [of Sun Microsystems] told a group of reporters and analysts Monday night [Jan 1999!] at an event to launch his company's new Jini technology. "Get over it."

I agree with this too. I once saw a You Tube video of Frank Sloup explaining that under Arizona law there is no concept of privacy when you are in a public (roughly, non-residential) space. 100% no privacy. A concept that I find easy to understand.
I gave away my financial privacy when I stopped keeping my salary under a flat rock in the garden. I had to look up Jini, so now Google knows that I’m interested in that …
Cheers Chris
P.S. I'm still thinking this through ...C

[John Gray]

I think the article you are referring to is: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhil ... ather-did/.

There were other instances written up by the well-known British mathematician {Professor] Hannah Fry in one of her books "Hello World: How to be Human in the Age of the Machine", which I recommend wholeheartedly.
[There is an interesting tale on p32 about the supermarket which gives out reduced-price coupons for items based on multiple previous purchases of those items, which I won't repeat here! Suffice to say that the wife was complaining about getting the money-off coupons because she said that "her husband never used the items in question"...]

She also did a BBC radio programme about using shopping data to detect ovarian cancer, which you may be able to listen to.

[ChrisGreaves]

She also did a BBC radio programme about using shopping data to detect ovarian cancer, which you may be able to listen to.

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Speaking of Hannah Fry (and who in my household isn't?) there popped up this morning an unsolicited sample of her new series "Uncharted". This short podcast discussed the findings of a young fellow in LA, working long hours (sleeping in his office, as was I at the time) who joined a dating society.
His findings mirrored mine back in 1990-91.
Cheers, Chris

[John Gray]

Returning to your loyalty card dilemma, have you ever thought of setting up an Alternative Person with unusual characteristics (carefully holding tongue here...!) who you can imbue with all sorts of random characteristics to intrigue the loyalty card algorithms?
Then you can carry on as yourself, whereas your alter ego can do all the shopping, buying gin and diapers, and so on!

[PJ_in_FL]

Chris,

Sorry I'm late to this conversation but I'm alarmed at something from your original post and wanted to respond to it.

You mentioned using a debit card to make a purchase.

DO NOT DO THAT!

EVER!

DEBIT CARDS SHOULD ONLY BE USED AT YOUR BANK.

There are no protections provided (in the US) for fraudulent transactions on debit cards. The transactions can clear out our entire bank account, and the bank may or may not choose to return the balance. If you cannot use a credit card, get cash at your bank (I know you bank is in another town, but...) and use that.

The risk of using a debit card in the wild cannot be overstated.

[HansV]

Wow! Everybody pays by debit card all the time here, both in shops and online (the latter usually through a secure payment service).

[StuartR]

I use credit cards for any significant purchases. I only use debit cards for small transactions or cash withdrawal

[PJ_in_FL]

Any use of a debit card puts your information on servers that can be hacked, and often are, thus that information can be used to create fraudulent transactions against your bank accounts connected to that card.

Stuart, the size of the transaction is not relevant. Cash withdrawal at your own bank is generally secure.

EU might have different regulations than the US, but in the US, only credit cards have limitations on liability for fraudulent activities.

Many banks consider all activity to be authorized and legitimate unless provided proof that might stand up in court. To their defense, some people have tried to use family and friends to use their debit card then claim fraud to get reimbursed. Fraud goes both ways.

I've had two recent attempts to expose accounts by various phishing schemes. One where my 401K management company "returned my call" and I had not called them. I refused to click on a link they sent via SMS to confirm my identity because I had no proof I was talking to the company and not a fraudster.

Bottom line, trust no one and remain vigilant. Oh, and go see "The Beekeeper" and dream how nice it would be if these paybacks really happened.

Finally, R.I.P. James Earl Jones, 1931-2024. Thank you sir for sharing your immense talents with the world.

Now to bed and stop watching the most likely scrubbed launch of Polaris Dawn.......

[StuartR]

In the UK you have protection against fraud on both. The difference here is that you can claim a refund from a credit card if the goods are faulty and the seller doesn't refund you, or if the seller goes out of business before the goods are dispatched

[ChrisGreaves]

Returning to your loyalty card dilemma, have you ever thought of setting up an Alternative Person with unusual characteristics ...

Thanks John. I did entertain this idea some fourteen years ago and it suggested further development.
So far my Alter Ego has had a very eventful life - two trips to the Île-de-France - even a couple of fake web trees set up, images courtesy Google Maps to add authenticity - and then feeling that that was too much work, a faked tour of Newfoundland (2017) and a return trip for a two-week holiday in Bonavista (2018), followed by a supportive claim to have settled IN Bonavista!

The wheel has pretty well come full circle to the point where I considered and executed a move back to Toronto and my regular hobby of composting grass clippings for The Toronto City Council.

Then you can carry on as yourself, whereas your alter ego can do all the shopping, buying gin and diapers, and so on!

Here in Toronto (Ontario) seniors can get a diaper allowance for free under OHIP but Gin (and, alas, good quality whiskey) is not yet on the free plan.

Still, I'll cross that Ford when I come to it.
Cheers, Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

You mentioned using a debit card to make a purchase. Do not do that! Ever! Debit cards should only be used at your bank.

Hi PJ. I understand your alarm, and as you know I am somewhat paranoid.
That said, I used the term “debit cards” in my original post as a means of describing the arena in which one might play with these bonus schemes (“but at least with a debit card rather than a credit card”). There may well be people who do not want to pay with banknotes or, for some purchases credit cards, but will use a debit card. In another dimension, while I have access to TWO credit cards, I may elect to use one for groceries and the other for house supplies. That is, different strokes for different folks.

There are no protections provided (in the US) for fraudulent transactions on debit cards. … The risk of using a debit card in the wild cannot be overstated.

But I am not in the wild! I am in Canada where the consumer laws are different from those in the USA, As well, I monitor daily the Canadian and the Australian news sources. There are many stories of people being “scammed” in those countries. My general view are that these are people who truly don’t think – a bit like the Student nurse stranded in desert without food, water after Google Maps gave her wrong directions. It’s not clear to me whether the lady had printed maps to hard-copy or was relying on smart phone coverage, but either way, heading out without consulting the locals is foolhardy.
But I digress.
I do know that laws differ from country to country. Even within a single country. In your nation (USA) traffic laws vary from state to sate. I suspect that 99% of USA car drivers would not be able to list the US states (let alone the counties let alone the municipalities) that permit “Right turn on a red light”. Further, I believe that real-world reactions for debit-card fraud may very well depend on who the consumer is dealing with at the time a complaint is lodged.

Any use of a debit card puts your information on servers that can be hacked, …

This seems to me to be a general warning not to make use of any computerized system where your personal data can be stored. That would pretty well rule out airline travel, travel by car and so on.
FWIW in South Carolina back around 1990 my credit card data was misused by a gas-pump clerk who billed $50 on three separate occasions to my card; two were evident in my statement and the third was announced by VISA who knew (again from my transactions record) that I was back in Toronto on that day at the time. That VISA could track me by transactions was a good thing, yes?

Stuart, the size of the transaction is not relevant. Cash withdrawal at your own bank is generally secure.

Please define “generally”. From your earlier comments ANY use of a debit card is potential fraud.

… but in the US, only credit cards have limitations on liability for fraudulent activities.

Relocate to Canada, that’s my advice

Back to the start, I was more concerned about these cash-rewards systems being personal-data-harvesting schemes. I suspect that the harm done by this sort of profiling is more dangerous than the cash-grab scams.

Cheers, Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

Bottom line, trust no one and remain vigilant.

On a personal note about Debit Card bank fraud, I am retired and lead a simple life. Once a month a pension cheque reaches my bank and that same day I make all payments from that account, shunting the balance into a different bank.
My debit-card account holds ONLY the money required for the weekly mortgage payments.

If I had any brains I'd switch to monthly payments and have a balance of near-zero in the bank account within eight hours of the pension landing.

A quarter-century ago I knew (not "knew of") a lady in Toronto who maintained $300,000 in her chequing account; that is, susceptible to debit-card fraud.
I could not understand why she didn't move it to what in Canada is a high-interest savings account. Back then I could have bought a lot of groceries with $6,570!

Cheers, Chris
[LATER]This article supprts PJs argument aboiut avoiding the use of debit cards. (Especially I would think, at the end of a gruelling trip by air).
[LATER STILL]

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Chris

[PJ_in_FL]

Now for the irony:

I and my wife have just suffered ID theft, with many accounts compromised.

New credit cards issued and used.
Charges against existing credit cards.
Loan applications submitted, but thankfully not completed.
Passwords, phone numbers and addresses changed on several accounts.
And finally - charges against the wife's DEBIT card.

I was first suspicious when the 401K management company called me and said they were returning my call. I had not called them.

Then a late night email from Paypal about a card being reissued, leading to the discovery of a new credit card issued by a bank and attached to my Paypal account (I didn't even know that was possible), and a 2AM conversation with their fraud department.

Wife had almost all credit cards and bank accounts compromised, including the checking account associated with the debit card. Still working to get that thankfully small amount restored.

Then found mysterious devices connected to online email accounts. Immediately changed passwords and implemented 2FA on both.

The overall feeling from this is of being violated. Having intimate secrets exposed.

Even with knowledge of most of wife's online access information, they did things I could not have done with the information I have. Still very puzzled how the data was obtained. Leaving it to people more versed in forensic analysis than myself to find answers and possibly pursue the guilty.

We've fought back: scanned all PCs and phones for malware using McAfee, AVG, Play Protect, SuperAntiSpyware and other tools, a freeze placed on our accounts at all three credit bureaus, 2FA implemented wherever possible, closed old and opened new bank accounts, ID theft monitoring started ...

Wife was on the phone and at the bank for most of the week. Sadly to say no new artwork was completed.

[StuartR]

What a pain! I hope it's all fully resolved

[HansV]

Wow, that's bad!

[ChrisGreaves]

I was first suspicious when the 401K management company called me and said they were returning my call. I had not called them.

PJ, I'm saddened to hear this, partly because it's just sad, and partly because I know that you are an advocate of safety when it comes to online accounts and all that stuff.

Please clear up a point for me, something I *think* I know but should have confirmed many moons ago:-
"401K" in the USA is the federal taxation department?
(UK Inland Revenue; Canada CRA; Australia Australian Tax office?

The overall feeling from this is of being violated. Having intimate secrets exposed.

I know that feeling. In France (late 1970s) I had my pocket picked when boarding an underground train, and later had my ground-floor apartment door damaged during a thwarted break-in. Just coming close to being violated is being violated.

Still very puzzled how the data was obtained. Leaving it to people more versed in forensic analysis than myself to find answers and possibly pursue the guilty.

I can answer that in part by a proof-of-concept project from three years ago. I was asked if it was possible to obtain personal details (name, street address, telephone, email etc) of AirBNB lessees. AirBNB does NOT provide those details; they want to protect their commission. The data that can be obtained by repeated scouring of web pages is amazing. This can be done manually, but the speed of computers makes it an effective tool.

Wife was on the phone and at the bank for most of the week.

Perhaps the worst part, in the long run, is the time sucked out of YOUR 24/7 life by all the necessary rebuilding.

Best Wishes
Chris

[StuartR]

If there is one good thing to come from this then it may be that some loungers will see your post and decide to put in two factor authentication for all their accounts, in addition to using a password manager so they can use long strong unique passwords on every site.

[PJ_in_FL]

If there is one good thing to come from this then it may be that some loungers will see your post and decide to put in two factor authentication for all their accounts, in addition to using a password manager so they can use long strong unique passwords on every site.

Stuart,

That's exactly why I went into the details of this painful episode.

By the way, just found another credit card opened in my name.

Chris:

401K is a savings and investment account that is allowed to be funded with pre-tax income. These accounts generally are used to purchase stocks or bonds, and are designed to be part of a retirement income portfolio.